https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/mac-engel/article214919825.html
Exclusive: Former Baylor defensive coordinator recounts the rape scandal
BY MAC ENGEL
July 18, 2018 07:00 AM
Updated 1 hour 9 minutes ago
COLLEGE STATION
Phil Bennett is 62 and currently relaxing on his back porch by the pool.
He wants to talk. He's wanted to do this for years.
For the record, Phil Bennett, did you or any member of the Baylor coaching staff deliberately try to suppress or hide allegations of sexual assault against members of the football program?
"Never. Never. Never. I would have led the charge. Never," he said.
This has been the insinuation for years is that you all knew and covered it up.
"Never. If I had heard about it, trust me ... no," he said. "My integrity, and I could say this when I was 29, my integrity was more important than any job I ever had."
The former defensive coordinator at Baylor under Art Briles was the one member of Briles' staff to land a Power 5 coaching position after all of the members left the program following the 2016 season. He was hired by Arizona State.
The man he wants to see hired now is Briles, who remains unemployed and currently lives on Horseshoe Bay near Austin.
"Every night I say a prayer for him because, without question, I think he deserves to (coach again)," Bennett said.
Bennett, who is taking a year away from coaching after he had surgeries to repair a few problems, was vetted by ASU, but no member of that staff has given an extensive interview about the events that led to the departures of Baylor President Ken Starr, athletic director Ian McCaw and Briles.
This is the first time any member of that staff has talked publicly about the "Baylor football rape scandal."
Bennett spoke for more than an hour on a variety of subjects.
OF SAM UKWUACHU
In the early fall 2015, Texas Monthly published a story that essentially started the downfall of the Baylor football program. The story detailed how the school handled the addition of Boise State transfer defensive end Sam Ukwuachu.
In June 2014, Ukwuachu was indicted on two counts of sexual assault of a Baylor student athlete. That fall, Ukwuachu would sit out the NCAA mandatory one-year period for transfers.
Included in that TM report was an anecdote that Bennett told a group of Baylor fans in a June '15 gathering for the Baylor Sports Network that Ukwuachu was expected to play that fall. At the time, Ukwuachu was scheduled to stand trial for allegedly raping a member of the Baylor women's soccer team.
Why did you make that comment?
"It was at Joe T. Garcia's (in Fort Worth). I was asked about it. I never mentioned it until I was asked. I would do a run-down of the defensive players (for the audience). I would say, 'At left defensive end, we have so and so.' I never said his name. Someone asked me, 'What about Sam?' I said, 'We expect him back.' We didn't go into personnel or anything. He had just been cleared by our judicial affairs, who said, 'We think this is going to be cleared.' "
Who told you he would be clear?
"Sam told me. He took out a $5,000 loan to pay for his own lie detector test. And (the staff) was told that he gave (Baylor chief judicial officer) Bethany McCraw all the facts. We were told he would be clear. How do you end up getting convicted and six months probation?"
In August of 2015, Ukwauchu was sentenced to six months in jail and 10 years of felony probation by a Waco jury. A Waco district judge added 400 hours of additional community service to the sentence. The jury originally recommended eight years in prison, but the sentence to be probated. The judge added 180 days in jail as a term of his probation.
In March, the 10th Court of Appeals in Waco ruled that Ukwuachu deserves a new trial based on text messages that were not included in the original trial. As of June 30, 2018, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals agreed to review the state's appeal of the reversal by the lower court.
How did the staff handle it when Texas Monthly published the story about Ukwuachu?
"We were committed and we knew more about the situation than anybody else. Art would say, (athletic director Ian McCaw) says, 'Stick with due process 'til it's done.' (Ukwuachu's) roommate was there (during the alleged attack). And, at the same time, you said it yourself, 'How do you know?' You can't live with that if you're wrong. It was not our job to do it, and we were going on what we were told.
"If we had had (Title IX coordinator) Patty Crawford (who was hired in November '14) in place, this all would have been out of our hands and they would have handled it. Art would have survived. We all would have survived. I go back to Sam's deal; the sensationalism and the lies that he played. He never played. He never set foot in the weight room or the locker room. I've said this from the get-go: This was a systematic problem. Baylor never wanted Title IX in the first place."
High-ranking Baylor officials have said that Starr was fundamentally against Title IX because he felt it was not legal.
Reached by phone, Starr said, "That is patently and demonstrably untrue."
But Ukwuachu graduated from Baylor. The alleged victim did not.
"That's right. He did graduate," Bennett said.
Can you see how people would have a problem with that?
"Do you believe in due process?"
Absolutely. Should you and your staff have known?
"(Then Boise State coach) Chris Petersen called us. Said he was homesick (Ukwuachu is from Pearland). We didn't call them. They called us. Boise State didn't know anything about his past until it came out in trial that he hit (his girlfriend). (Media reports) said we took him knowing that, which was not true. Boise State recommended and released him in good standing."
If he was homesick, as Coach Briles said Coach Petersen told him, why did he consider transferring to Florida, as was reported by Sports Illustrated?
"I don't know. Chris said that Sam had a few issues and that he was moody. Which he is."
In hindsight, should you have seen the potential red flags?
"I called his high school coach. We did the research. The high school coach said, 'Phil, he's a good kid.' His dad was an immigrant who worked. He was a good student. Think about what you asked me: We are all trying to do due diligence."
OF PEPPER HAMILTON
In September 2015, Starr announced that Baylor hired the Philadelphia law firm of Pepper Hamilton to conduct an independent internal investigation of the school's Title IX policies, and procedures regarding sexual assault claims.
The firm sent a pair of investigators to Baylor who spent more than a year on campus conducting various interviews. The investigators presented their findings to the Baylor Board of Regents in the spring of 2016, which eventually led to the firing of Briles and several changes at the school.
How was your interview with Pepper Hamilton?
"It was somewhere in January or February after our bowl game. I told (staffers) it was a fraud set up from the get-go. I wanted to bring a lawyer in and to record it. I wanted protection. They would not talk to us if we did. They didn't have a recording of it, either. That's what bothered me. I was in there for 4 1/2 hours. They wrote notes. I wrote notes. They looked at mine. I looked at theirs. (The two investigators) were so out of touch with the structure of college football it was comical.
"They said, 'Did you all try to circumvent the rules from the on-campus people?' (The investigator) would say, 'What would you do if a guy was late to practice? I said we have punishment running; up at 5 a.m. She said, 'Did you tell the student affairs people?' I said, 'Absolutely not.' They said, 'We should have if we had our strength and conditioning coach running people for misbehaving in study hall.' I laughed. I said, 'We are bringing these kids in and we take great pride in keeping them within the lines of university procedures. That's our jobs. We are not getting the normal student.' I wanted to be as real as I could with them. We are trying to teach these kids how to be in college and how to react in situations. She says, 'Judicial Affairs should have known.' As soon as she said that, I knew this was over."
Is it true one of the investigators asked a coach why the team has so many black players?
"It was me. We had been talking about (defensive end) Shawn Oakman. They asked about a situation. They thought we just got Shawn (who was a transfer from Penn State). I knew Shawn because I recruited him when I was at Pittsburgh. I knew his situation (before college in Philadelphia). It was tough. One of the investigators said her husband is a Philly cop and knows the area and I get up (for a break) and the woman says, 'Y'all seem to have a lot of black players.' I looked at her and said, 'Are you kidding me?'
"She says, 'I don't mean ...' and that was the end of it. Later on it comes that how do your black players fit in on campus life at Baylor? As it went on I asked one of them, 'Do you realize you have not asked me about a single white player?' It was too many questions (about race) and it was almost that I got the feeling you should have thought about bringing them in before you brought them here. I was not going to explain to them how or why we recruited."
When did you know that you were all in trouble?
"When I had the interview with Pepper Hamilton. I knew it was a fraud. I told Art that. I told Ian, 'They don't know what they don't know.' .... I don't care about perception. We made our kids go to class. We were No. 1 or No. 2 in graduation; you can't be a rogue program and do that."
Do you think they were looking for a reason to fire you?
"Yes. I remember when this all started my wife told me, 'This is the sort of thing that gets you fired.' I don't know if this was true but I was told by a member of the board that Art was never the objective. They were looking to fire Ken Starr. But Starr lawyered up. And the next on the pole was Briles."
Starr responded to this saying, "The last part is totally wrong; I did have a lawyer, (but) he did not involve himself until after the Board made the decision with respect to firing me."
OF ART BRILES
Briles was hired away from the University of Houston by Baylor after the 2007 season. In his third season in Waco, Baylor posted its first winning record since 1995.
The offense was one of the best in the nation whereas the defense was far from it. Briles hired Bennett to run his defense. In Bennett's first season at Baylor, the Bears reached double-digit wins for the first time since 1980, won the Alamo Bowl and quarterback Robert Griffin III won the Heisman Trophy.
You were unilaterally in charge of the defense?
"Yes."
Many of the players linked to this scandal were on defense. At the time you arrived, Baylor's offense was rolling but the defense was not. In order to improve the defense, Baylor rolled the dice on some kids that you are going to have to keep an eye on to make the defense better. Agree or disagree?
"That's assuming too much. This is what I saw: Athletically we needed to get better. One thing I learned from Art was to be more patient. To be disciplined. I thought I knew Oakman. I had a history with him. Had I not, we would not have taken him. The guy slept on a mattress as a kid that you would not want your dog to sleep on. He needed guidance. So, no, I don't think so. There were kids we could have had that I said no. If I said no, Art said no."
What do you think was the final breaking point that you believe led to Briles being fired?
"Probably the Shawn Oakman incident. If you look at the timing of it (Oakman was arrested for allegedly sexual assaulting a woman in April 2016). I do think that was it. It was all just too much. He wasn't even with us at that point."
Should Art have done more?
"Art had done right and it started to affect him. He would say to me, 'I could have done more." I would say, 'What would you do different?' He said, 'I don't know. Go to the police?' We did not have Title IX until after all of this stuff."
When did you know that Art was going to be fired?
"He had to do a video interview with Board members from Houston in May (2016). Some of the regents who watched it said it wasn't good. Those sorts of things were not Art's strength. He said, 'I wasn't good.' I wish I could have had 10 minutes with him to prep him for that."
"When it all came down he called me and said, 'They let me go.' I say 'Let me go' with $15 million (Briles' reported buyout figure by Baylor). Does that tell you something? Common sense. He said, 'You're going to be the head coach. Ian is going to call you. I know you are going to do a good job.' He was beat up. We were all sick. We had kids to take care of. Ian called me and immediately they wanted me to start kicking kids off the team."
Was he naive?
"We all were. We were naive to think that Baylor would do the right thing knowing it was a systematic problem. Let me ask you, you're the head coach, do you kick Sam off the team or suspend him until due process is over?"
It depends on what I think of the kid. In these situations a powerful head coach of a successful Power 5 football or men's basketball team can kick a guy to the moon if he wants. (Baylor) looked at Art and he looked at them and they said, 'Due process' or whatever. He was going to do what they said, when they were going to do whatever he said.
You had too many people working too hard to make sure nothing hits his desk, because that's the way the system works in college football and men's basketball. It was the one thing he said in the ESPN interview, 'He was the last to know when he should have been the first.'
"There is some truth to that."
Did they expect the staff to be Title IX?
"Yes. They wanted him to be judge, jury and executioner. And he's not."
That's a flaw of college athletics. He's making the most money, so he gets to do everything so, 'Here, you do it.' Right or wrong?
"Right. Yes. Art didn't want to be that guy. Ian would tell him to be more aggressive in (defending) himself."
Do you think the program had discipline problems?
"What do you mean by discipline?"
That a number of players were involved in a high number of criminal allegations, that would lead me to believe there is no fear of God in the program.
"Let me give you some numbers. In six years we dismissed 27 players."
Is that an inordinate number?
"Yes. That's five a year."
Critically you could say why did you bring them in the first place.
"Listen, you take a five-star recruit who never plays a down you're not going to be 100 percent. On ability. We prided ourselves on two things: Evaluation and development. Look at us, and look at TCU, you're going to have instances. If I said discipline, maybe, Oakman didn't get in trouble until after. We had MIPs. Those things but, can you think of anything that you read that you said this guy played and he was not disciplined? I know of no one.
"We tried to stay on top of things. Were we just a hammer? Probably not."
Should you have been?
"How do you know (when to do it)? I'm a hammer. One of the things I liked about Art was that he liked working with kids. I'm not talking about thugs, I'm talking about kids. He cared. How do you say that? He wanted to believe the best of kids."
Another theory: Everyone was doing their part, but that (leaders in charge) were passing the problems along to the next person and they all passed the buck.
"I would agree because the system was not in place. The system failed us. It failed them, and it failed the kids."
And the leadership at Baylor was all looking at Art Briles to do it. Fair or unfair assessment?
"Very fair. Art went to Ian, who went to Judge Starr and (Baylor chief legal counsel Christopher) Holmes. And then (Baylor senior administrator) Reagan Ramsower gets involved. That's a story within itself. This picture tells you you are not to speak about it. That this is personnel and they are handling it.
"I sat in a meeting with (former Baylor Title IX coordinator) Patty Crawford and I asked her, "Is anybody restricting you from doing your job at Baylor?' She said yes. Reagan Ramsower.'
"I gave her a scenario: If Sam is here and this comes down and she said, 'It would have been done. The school would have separated once Title IX did their job.' Like you said, everyone is telling the right people but there is no action. Am I qualified? Hell no. Do I have an opinion? Yes, but I'm not qualified. It's not my job. It's not Art's job."
OF BAYLOR UNIVERSITY
My theory is that Baylor was trying to be small, private and retaining its Baptist roots while being a big-time school and that it can't be all of those things. Agree or disagree?
"I'm not sure you are not right on a level but I think the majority of the people liked the front window that was being painted at Baylor. We were good in football. We were good in men's basketball. We had the best women's basketball coach in America. I just think when this all came down, the sensationalism, the lies, the internet journalism ... I mean, it's a different age.
"One (sexual assault) is too many. You can't live with it. It's also our world."
You have worked for 12 schools; how was Baylor different?
"I really don't think it was anything abnormal. Maybe the student judicial system. We had no drug testing; it was under student judicial. No one seems to believe me when I tell them that. If a guy got caught smoking weed in his room, he would be taken to judicial affairs. And then they had to be on call once a week. If I went to judicial affairs and said, 'Drug test these guys' they would not do it. There had to be an offense that brought them in. They eventually changed that.
"I think Baylor worked hard to treat students right. They were all a little glassy-eyed with our success. People told me Judge Starr never wanted (McLane Stadium) built; he wanted something else. The regents wanted it. To compete you have to build."
In response to this, Starr said, "Initially I was concerned about the expenditure of funds for an on campus stadium. I was persuaded by (powerful Baylor alum) Drayton McLane that we would succeed in raising millions of dollars for our scholarship initiatives for building a new business school if we went forward with an on campus stadium. I accepted Drayton's argument at the time, and he proved to be exactly right."
Is there a stigma having been a coach at Baylor then?
"There always is. We had great coaches and I was the only one who got a Power 5 job. The athletic directors did not want to deal with the stigma of dealing with Baylor."
When Arizona State hired you, did Baylor vouch for you?
"When this came to an end at Baylor, I sat down with (current athletic director) Mack Rhoades. I said, 'We're going to have a problem.' The biggest thing was the Pepper Hamilton report put there was that all of the coaches knew in the 'Finding of Fact.' That threw all of us in the same hopper; that we were concealing something. Every news article said the staff knew. I told Mack, 'That's (blank). Nobody accused us but that keeps coming out.' That was part of the (PR firm Bunting, which Baylor hired) that was going to hatchet everybody. Mack wrote a letter for (staffers) and that was the first time I used that letter (for Arizona State). I knew I was going to be vetted and (Arizona State called Baylor). I did not compromise my integrity in 40 years nor will I."
IN HINDSIGHT, AND MOVING FORWARD
When Art was fired you were briefly named the interim coach until the school hired Jim Grobe. What was that 2016 season like?
"Whatever they paid Jim Grobe they should have doubled it. I am so proud of that 2016 team because every black kid on that team felt like they had been profiled."
Had they been?
"Hell yes. You should have heard the things those kids were called. We were 6-0 and getting ready to go to Texas. We get called out of practice (on Oct. 27, 2016) to see Mack Rhoades. We had heard Baylor had hired a PR agency to put a spin on it. A friend called me to warn me and said, 'They don't care. They will cut your ... These guys are no BS.' Mack tells us that there is an article to come out in The Wall Street Journal that it will say we knowingly withheld information. I wish you could have heard that meeting. I went off. I used some of the foulest language. It did it to keep (offensive coordinator) Kendal Briles from going crazy. He was beside himself. It was just all lies.
"It scarred every one of us."
If you had to do over again, what would you do differently?
"I wouldn't say I would have kicked Sam off, but I would have distanced him more from the program. However you do it. The separation. We had too many good kids who were tarnished. We were always caught on due process. I thought we were doing things.
"I would never have gone into that meeting with Pepper Hamilton without representation. I would have been more aggressive with Art to get out and to defend himself. He's not a controversy guy. Art told me he believed in Baylor. He said, 'Phil, they will do the right thing and they know you are telling the truth.' Ian said that. I'm not a know-it-all, but I've been around. I knew I was going to get hammered on Sam's deal, but it never bothered me because I knew the context how it was asked. I never had to apologize.
"Art should never have done that interview with ESPN (In Sept. 2016, Briles agreed to an interview with ESPN that did not go well)."
Anything else you'd like to add?
"I've had so many emotions even before talking to you. The thing that bothered me the most was the sensationalism to all of it. The lies. The reports and headlines of '52 rapes' and 'Rape Culture.' None of that was true. There are so many things. Never at any point did I think this program was out of control, from Ian on down. We were trying get the best players and character is part of that mix. I thought we would reach our goals there and that would be my last job. Art and I talked that maybe Kendal would take over. I'm happy those assistants are getting Power 5 jobs again. Art is older and he got paid but there is an emptiness when you talk to him he will never get back unless he gets another chance.
"I say this again, I just felt the system was a failure to help anybody, us or the victims."
BAYLOR'S RESPONSE
In response to this interview, Baylor University issued the following statement:
"The underlying situation of what happened at Baylor is quite simple. Two high-profile cases of sexual assault involving football players led the Baylor Board of Regents to launch an independent investigation of not only the football program but of the entire campus in terms of how reports of sexual violence were handled during a four-year period. The results of this investigation were outlined in a Findings of Fact document that led to sweeping leadership changes and a slate of 105 recommendations for improvement.
"The facts concerning Baylor's past handling of incidents of sexual assault have not changed, and the University remains confident in the personnel changes made as a result. The latest assertions about the investigation, claims of racism and a cover-up continue to trade on baseless conspiracy theories and outright speculation.
"Baylor has made extensive changes and significant progress under its new leadership team through the completion of the 105 recommendations and the campus-wide implementation of policies, processes and procedures to improve awareness, prevention and response to sexual violence.
"It is important to note that in December 2016, the Baylor Board of Regents unanimously reaffirmed its full confidence concerning the thoroughness and fairness of the Pepper Hamilton investigation, following a report by a special committee that reviewed the methodology, scope of work and findings of the investigation. After receiving the committee's review and analysis, the Board found no facts to support concerns raised and concluded that the Pepper Hamilton investigation was comprehensive, unbiased and professional. The Board voted unanimously against engaging another firm to review the investigation."
Exclusive: Former Baylor defensive coordinator recounts the rape scandal
BY MAC ENGEL
July 18, 2018 07:00 AM
Updated 1 hour 9 minutes ago
COLLEGE STATION
Phil Bennett is 62 and currently relaxing on his back porch by the pool.
He wants to talk. He's wanted to do this for years.
For the record, Phil Bennett, did you or any member of the Baylor coaching staff deliberately try to suppress or hide allegations of sexual assault against members of the football program?
"Never. Never. Never. I would have led the charge. Never," he said.
This has been the insinuation for years is that you all knew and covered it up.
"Never. If I had heard about it, trust me ... no," he said. "My integrity, and I could say this when I was 29, my integrity was more important than any job I ever had."
The former defensive coordinator at Baylor under Art Briles was the one member of Briles' staff to land a Power 5 coaching position after all of the members left the program following the 2016 season. He was hired by Arizona State.
The man he wants to see hired now is Briles, who remains unemployed and currently lives on Horseshoe Bay near Austin.
"Every night I say a prayer for him because, without question, I think he deserves to (coach again)," Bennett said.
Bennett, who is taking a year away from coaching after he had surgeries to repair a few problems, was vetted by ASU, but no member of that staff has given an extensive interview about the events that led to the departures of Baylor President Ken Starr, athletic director Ian McCaw and Briles.
This is the first time any member of that staff has talked publicly about the "Baylor football rape scandal."
Bennett spoke for more than an hour on a variety of subjects.
OF SAM UKWUACHU
In the early fall 2015, Texas Monthly published a story that essentially started the downfall of the Baylor football program. The story detailed how the school handled the addition of Boise State transfer defensive end Sam Ukwuachu.
In June 2014, Ukwuachu was indicted on two counts of sexual assault of a Baylor student athlete. That fall, Ukwuachu would sit out the NCAA mandatory one-year period for transfers.
Included in that TM report was an anecdote that Bennett told a group of Baylor fans in a June '15 gathering for the Baylor Sports Network that Ukwuachu was expected to play that fall. At the time, Ukwuachu was scheduled to stand trial for allegedly raping a member of the Baylor women's soccer team.
Why did you make that comment?
"It was at Joe T. Garcia's (in Fort Worth). I was asked about it. I never mentioned it until I was asked. I would do a run-down of the defensive players (for the audience). I would say, 'At left defensive end, we have so and so.' I never said his name. Someone asked me, 'What about Sam?' I said, 'We expect him back.' We didn't go into personnel or anything. He had just been cleared by our judicial affairs, who said, 'We think this is going to be cleared.' "
Who told you he would be clear?
"Sam told me. He took out a $5,000 loan to pay for his own lie detector test. And (the staff) was told that he gave (Baylor chief judicial officer) Bethany McCraw all the facts. We were told he would be clear. How do you end up getting convicted and six months probation?"
In August of 2015, Ukwauchu was sentenced to six months in jail and 10 years of felony probation by a Waco jury. A Waco district judge added 400 hours of additional community service to the sentence. The jury originally recommended eight years in prison, but the sentence to be probated. The judge added 180 days in jail as a term of his probation.
In March, the 10th Court of Appeals in Waco ruled that Ukwuachu deserves a new trial based on text messages that were not included in the original trial. As of June 30, 2018, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals agreed to review the state's appeal of the reversal by the lower court.
How did the staff handle it when Texas Monthly published the story about Ukwuachu?
"We were committed and we knew more about the situation than anybody else. Art would say, (athletic director Ian McCaw) says, 'Stick with due process 'til it's done.' (Ukwuachu's) roommate was there (during the alleged attack). And, at the same time, you said it yourself, 'How do you know?' You can't live with that if you're wrong. It was not our job to do it, and we were going on what we were told.
"If we had had (Title IX coordinator) Patty Crawford (who was hired in November '14) in place, this all would have been out of our hands and they would have handled it. Art would have survived. We all would have survived. I go back to Sam's deal; the sensationalism and the lies that he played. He never played. He never set foot in the weight room or the locker room. I've said this from the get-go: This was a systematic problem. Baylor never wanted Title IX in the first place."
High-ranking Baylor officials have said that Starr was fundamentally against Title IX because he felt it was not legal.
Reached by phone, Starr said, "That is patently and demonstrably untrue."
But Ukwuachu graduated from Baylor. The alleged victim did not.
"That's right. He did graduate," Bennett said.
Can you see how people would have a problem with that?
"Do you believe in due process?"
Absolutely. Should you and your staff have known?
"(Then Boise State coach) Chris Petersen called us. Said he was homesick (Ukwuachu is from Pearland). We didn't call them. They called us. Boise State didn't know anything about his past until it came out in trial that he hit (his girlfriend). (Media reports) said we took him knowing that, which was not true. Boise State recommended and released him in good standing."
If he was homesick, as Coach Briles said Coach Petersen told him, why did he consider transferring to Florida, as was reported by Sports Illustrated?
"I don't know. Chris said that Sam had a few issues and that he was moody. Which he is."
In hindsight, should you have seen the potential red flags?
"I called his high school coach. We did the research. The high school coach said, 'Phil, he's a good kid.' His dad was an immigrant who worked. He was a good student. Think about what you asked me: We are all trying to do due diligence."
OF PEPPER HAMILTON
In September 2015, Starr announced that Baylor hired the Philadelphia law firm of Pepper Hamilton to conduct an independent internal investigation of the school's Title IX policies, and procedures regarding sexual assault claims.
The firm sent a pair of investigators to Baylor who spent more than a year on campus conducting various interviews. The investigators presented their findings to the Baylor Board of Regents in the spring of 2016, which eventually led to the firing of Briles and several changes at the school.
How was your interview with Pepper Hamilton?
"It was somewhere in January or February after our bowl game. I told (staffers) it was a fraud set up from the get-go. I wanted to bring a lawyer in and to record it. I wanted protection. They would not talk to us if we did. They didn't have a recording of it, either. That's what bothered me. I was in there for 4 1/2 hours. They wrote notes. I wrote notes. They looked at mine. I looked at theirs. (The two investigators) were so out of touch with the structure of college football it was comical.
"They said, 'Did you all try to circumvent the rules from the on-campus people?' (The investigator) would say, 'What would you do if a guy was late to practice? I said we have punishment running; up at 5 a.m. She said, 'Did you tell the student affairs people?' I said, 'Absolutely not.' They said, 'We should have if we had our strength and conditioning coach running people for misbehaving in study hall.' I laughed. I said, 'We are bringing these kids in and we take great pride in keeping them within the lines of university procedures. That's our jobs. We are not getting the normal student.' I wanted to be as real as I could with them. We are trying to teach these kids how to be in college and how to react in situations. She says, 'Judicial Affairs should have known.' As soon as she said that, I knew this was over."
Is it true one of the investigators asked a coach why the team has so many black players?
"It was me. We had been talking about (defensive end) Shawn Oakman. They asked about a situation. They thought we just got Shawn (who was a transfer from Penn State). I knew Shawn because I recruited him when I was at Pittsburgh. I knew his situation (before college in Philadelphia). It was tough. One of the investigators said her husband is a Philly cop and knows the area and I get up (for a break) and the woman says, 'Y'all seem to have a lot of black players.' I looked at her and said, 'Are you kidding me?'
"She says, 'I don't mean ...' and that was the end of it. Later on it comes that how do your black players fit in on campus life at Baylor? As it went on I asked one of them, 'Do you realize you have not asked me about a single white player?' It was too many questions (about race) and it was almost that I got the feeling you should have thought about bringing them in before you brought them here. I was not going to explain to them how or why we recruited."
When did you know that you were all in trouble?
"When I had the interview with Pepper Hamilton. I knew it was a fraud. I told Art that. I told Ian, 'They don't know what they don't know.' .... I don't care about perception. We made our kids go to class. We were No. 1 or No. 2 in graduation; you can't be a rogue program and do that."
Do you think they were looking for a reason to fire you?
"Yes. I remember when this all started my wife told me, 'This is the sort of thing that gets you fired.' I don't know if this was true but I was told by a member of the board that Art was never the objective. They were looking to fire Ken Starr. But Starr lawyered up. And the next on the pole was Briles."
Starr responded to this saying, "The last part is totally wrong; I did have a lawyer, (but) he did not involve himself until after the Board made the decision with respect to firing me."
OF ART BRILES
Briles was hired away from the University of Houston by Baylor after the 2007 season. In his third season in Waco, Baylor posted its first winning record since 1995.
The offense was one of the best in the nation whereas the defense was far from it. Briles hired Bennett to run his defense. In Bennett's first season at Baylor, the Bears reached double-digit wins for the first time since 1980, won the Alamo Bowl and quarterback Robert Griffin III won the Heisman Trophy.
You were unilaterally in charge of the defense?
"Yes."
Many of the players linked to this scandal were on defense. At the time you arrived, Baylor's offense was rolling but the defense was not. In order to improve the defense, Baylor rolled the dice on some kids that you are going to have to keep an eye on to make the defense better. Agree or disagree?
"That's assuming too much. This is what I saw: Athletically we needed to get better. One thing I learned from Art was to be more patient. To be disciplined. I thought I knew Oakman. I had a history with him. Had I not, we would not have taken him. The guy slept on a mattress as a kid that you would not want your dog to sleep on. He needed guidance. So, no, I don't think so. There were kids we could have had that I said no. If I said no, Art said no."
What do you think was the final breaking point that you believe led to Briles being fired?
"Probably the Shawn Oakman incident. If you look at the timing of it (Oakman was arrested for allegedly sexual assaulting a woman in April 2016). I do think that was it. It was all just too much. He wasn't even with us at that point."
Should Art have done more?
"Art had done right and it started to affect him. He would say to me, 'I could have done more." I would say, 'What would you do different?' He said, 'I don't know. Go to the police?' We did not have Title IX until after all of this stuff."
When did you know that Art was going to be fired?
"He had to do a video interview with Board members from Houston in May (2016). Some of the regents who watched it said it wasn't good. Those sorts of things were not Art's strength. He said, 'I wasn't good.' I wish I could have had 10 minutes with him to prep him for that."
"When it all came down he called me and said, 'They let me go.' I say 'Let me go' with $15 million (Briles' reported buyout figure by Baylor). Does that tell you something? Common sense. He said, 'You're going to be the head coach. Ian is going to call you. I know you are going to do a good job.' He was beat up. We were all sick. We had kids to take care of. Ian called me and immediately they wanted me to start kicking kids off the team."
Was he naive?
"We all were. We were naive to think that Baylor would do the right thing knowing it was a systematic problem. Let me ask you, you're the head coach, do you kick Sam off the team or suspend him until due process is over?"
It depends on what I think of the kid. In these situations a powerful head coach of a successful Power 5 football or men's basketball team can kick a guy to the moon if he wants. (Baylor) looked at Art and he looked at them and they said, 'Due process' or whatever. He was going to do what they said, when they were going to do whatever he said.
You had too many people working too hard to make sure nothing hits his desk, because that's the way the system works in college football and men's basketball. It was the one thing he said in the ESPN interview, 'He was the last to know when he should have been the first.'
"There is some truth to that."
Did they expect the staff to be Title IX?
"Yes. They wanted him to be judge, jury and executioner. And he's not."
That's a flaw of college athletics. He's making the most money, so he gets to do everything so, 'Here, you do it.' Right or wrong?
"Right. Yes. Art didn't want to be that guy. Ian would tell him to be more aggressive in (defending) himself."
Do you think the program had discipline problems?
"What do you mean by discipline?"
That a number of players were involved in a high number of criminal allegations, that would lead me to believe there is no fear of God in the program.
"Let me give you some numbers. In six years we dismissed 27 players."
Is that an inordinate number?
"Yes. That's five a year."
Critically you could say why did you bring them in the first place.
"Listen, you take a five-star recruit who never plays a down you're not going to be 100 percent. On ability. We prided ourselves on two things: Evaluation and development. Look at us, and look at TCU, you're going to have instances. If I said discipline, maybe, Oakman didn't get in trouble until after. We had MIPs. Those things but, can you think of anything that you read that you said this guy played and he was not disciplined? I know of no one.
"We tried to stay on top of things. Were we just a hammer? Probably not."
Should you have been?
"How do you know (when to do it)? I'm a hammer. One of the things I liked about Art was that he liked working with kids. I'm not talking about thugs, I'm talking about kids. He cared. How do you say that? He wanted to believe the best of kids."
Another theory: Everyone was doing their part, but that (leaders in charge) were passing the problems along to the next person and they all passed the buck.
"I would agree because the system was not in place. The system failed us. It failed them, and it failed the kids."
And the leadership at Baylor was all looking at Art Briles to do it. Fair or unfair assessment?
"Very fair. Art went to Ian, who went to Judge Starr and (Baylor chief legal counsel Christopher) Holmes. And then (Baylor senior administrator) Reagan Ramsower gets involved. That's a story within itself. This picture tells you you are not to speak about it. That this is personnel and they are handling it.
"I sat in a meeting with (former Baylor Title IX coordinator) Patty Crawford and I asked her, "Is anybody restricting you from doing your job at Baylor?' She said yes. Reagan Ramsower.'
"I gave her a scenario: If Sam is here and this comes down and she said, 'It would have been done. The school would have separated once Title IX did their job.' Like you said, everyone is telling the right people but there is no action. Am I qualified? Hell no. Do I have an opinion? Yes, but I'm not qualified. It's not my job. It's not Art's job."
OF BAYLOR UNIVERSITY
My theory is that Baylor was trying to be small, private and retaining its Baptist roots while being a big-time school and that it can't be all of those things. Agree or disagree?
"I'm not sure you are not right on a level but I think the majority of the people liked the front window that was being painted at Baylor. We were good in football. We were good in men's basketball. We had the best women's basketball coach in America. I just think when this all came down, the sensationalism, the lies, the internet journalism ... I mean, it's a different age.
"One (sexual assault) is too many. You can't live with it. It's also our world."
You have worked for 12 schools; how was Baylor different?
"I really don't think it was anything abnormal. Maybe the student judicial system. We had no drug testing; it was under student judicial. No one seems to believe me when I tell them that. If a guy got caught smoking weed in his room, he would be taken to judicial affairs. And then they had to be on call once a week. If I went to judicial affairs and said, 'Drug test these guys' they would not do it. There had to be an offense that brought them in. They eventually changed that.
"I think Baylor worked hard to treat students right. They were all a little glassy-eyed with our success. People told me Judge Starr never wanted (McLane Stadium) built; he wanted something else. The regents wanted it. To compete you have to build."
In response to this, Starr said, "Initially I was concerned about the expenditure of funds for an on campus stadium. I was persuaded by (powerful Baylor alum) Drayton McLane that we would succeed in raising millions of dollars for our scholarship initiatives for building a new business school if we went forward with an on campus stadium. I accepted Drayton's argument at the time, and he proved to be exactly right."
Is there a stigma having been a coach at Baylor then?
"There always is. We had great coaches and I was the only one who got a Power 5 job. The athletic directors did not want to deal with the stigma of dealing with Baylor."
When Arizona State hired you, did Baylor vouch for you?
"When this came to an end at Baylor, I sat down with (current athletic director) Mack Rhoades. I said, 'We're going to have a problem.' The biggest thing was the Pepper Hamilton report put there was that all of the coaches knew in the 'Finding of Fact.' That threw all of us in the same hopper; that we were concealing something. Every news article said the staff knew. I told Mack, 'That's (blank). Nobody accused us but that keeps coming out.' That was part of the (PR firm Bunting, which Baylor hired) that was going to hatchet everybody. Mack wrote a letter for (staffers) and that was the first time I used that letter (for Arizona State). I knew I was going to be vetted and (Arizona State called Baylor). I did not compromise my integrity in 40 years nor will I."
IN HINDSIGHT, AND MOVING FORWARD
When Art was fired you were briefly named the interim coach until the school hired Jim Grobe. What was that 2016 season like?
"Whatever they paid Jim Grobe they should have doubled it. I am so proud of that 2016 team because every black kid on that team felt like they had been profiled."
Had they been?
"Hell yes. You should have heard the things those kids were called. We were 6-0 and getting ready to go to Texas. We get called out of practice (on Oct. 27, 2016) to see Mack Rhoades. We had heard Baylor had hired a PR agency to put a spin on it. A friend called me to warn me and said, 'They don't care. They will cut your ... These guys are no BS.' Mack tells us that there is an article to come out in The Wall Street Journal that it will say we knowingly withheld information. I wish you could have heard that meeting. I went off. I used some of the foulest language. It did it to keep (offensive coordinator) Kendal Briles from going crazy. He was beside himself. It was just all lies.
"It scarred every one of us."
If you had to do over again, what would you do differently?
"I wouldn't say I would have kicked Sam off, but I would have distanced him more from the program. However you do it. The separation. We had too many good kids who were tarnished. We were always caught on due process. I thought we were doing things.
"I would never have gone into that meeting with Pepper Hamilton without representation. I would have been more aggressive with Art to get out and to defend himself. He's not a controversy guy. Art told me he believed in Baylor. He said, 'Phil, they will do the right thing and they know you are telling the truth.' Ian said that. I'm not a know-it-all, but I've been around. I knew I was going to get hammered on Sam's deal, but it never bothered me because I knew the context how it was asked. I never had to apologize.
"Art should never have done that interview with ESPN (In Sept. 2016, Briles agreed to an interview with ESPN that did not go well)."
Anything else you'd like to add?
"I've had so many emotions even before talking to you. The thing that bothered me the most was the sensationalism to all of it. The lies. The reports and headlines of '52 rapes' and 'Rape Culture.' None of that was true. There are so many things. Never at any point did I think this program was out of control, from Ian on down. We were trying get the best players and character is part of that mix. I thought we would reach our goals there and that would be my last job. Art and I talked that maybe Kendal would take over. I'm happy those assistants are getting Power 5 jobs again. Art is older and he got paid but there is an emptiness when you talk to him he will never get back unless he gets another chance.
"I say this again, I just felt the system was a failure to help anybody, us or the victims."
BAYLOR'S RESPONSE
In response to this interview, Baylor University issued the following statement:
"The underlying situation of what happened at Baylor is quite simple. Two high-profile cases of sexual assault involving football players led the Baylor Board of Regents to launch an independent investigation of not only the football program but of the entire campus in terms of how reports of sexual violence were handled during a four-year period. The results of this investigation were outlined in a Findings of Fact document that led to sweeping leadership changes and a slate of 105 recommendations for improvement.
"The facts concerning Baylor's past handling of incidents of sexual assault have not changed, and the University remains confident in the personnel changes made as a result. The latest assertions about the investigation, claims of racism and a cover-up continue to trade on baseless conspiracy theories and outright speculation.
"Baylor has made extensive changes and significant progress under its new leadership team through the completion of the 105 recommendations and the campus-wide implementation of policies, processes and procedures to improve awareness, prevention and response to sexual violence.
"It is important to note that in December 2016, the Baylor Board of Regents unanimously reaffirmed its full confidence concerning the thoroughness and fairness of the Pepper Hamilton investigation, following a report by a special committee that reviewed the methodology, scope of work and findings of the investigation. After receiving the committee's review and analysis, the Board found no facts to support concerns raised and concluded that the Pepper Hamilton investigation was comprehensive, unbiased and professional. The Board voted unanimously against engaging another firm to review the investigation."
